Mormon Video
Just in case you wondered what the difference between our theology and theirs is.
I put it under For Fun because the video is - as MSN puts it - "hilariously melodramatic."
Link: Mormon Theology in a Cartoon
Annette, Monday, 7-23-07 12:31 PM
re: Mormon Video
the first word that comes to my mind is "ridiculous".
ROUS  Christina Reagan, Monday, 7-23-07 2:48 PM
re: Mormon Video
The video is ridiculous but there is a lot of truth in it for Mormons. One of my favorite cousins is a devoted Temple Mormon. She is pregnant with her third child. One of the first thing she said to me was that she is so excited that this spirit baby chose to enter her body instead of some crack hores. I know it sounds crazy but she grew up with stuff and to her it is all normal and the true religion.
Amy, Wednesday, 7-25-07 12:34 AM
re: Mormon Video
Amy, not to nitpick unnecessarily here, but if Truth is in fact absolute and incontrovertible, there is not a "lot of truth in it for Mormons." If there was, we'd have to believe it too. If we do not believe it, we must instead accept that there is a lot of falsehood in it for Mormons that they have nevertheless chosen to accept.

I too have had a number of close Mormon friends and relatives - Grandma is fond of telling me that my father was "this close" to becoming a Mormon himself (not due to choice but due to a Mormon grandma) and that therefore I shouldn't make fun. And, no, I suppose we shouldn't make fun, although certain elements of their theology do seem to beg for it. A better response is probably to feel sorry for those trapped in such non-Christian nonsense.
But let's be fair: if someone where to make a similar cartoon of purely Biblical theology, it could be just as laughable to someone who did not believe.
I don't say that to equate Mormonism and Christianity in the least, because I firmly believe that the former is nonsense and the latter is God's Truth.
The important question is *why* do I believe that way? How can we separate Mormonism from orthodox Christianity in any objective way, given that either might seem ridiculous analyzed by purely human wisdom? Is it by a "burning in the breast" (to borrow a Mormon phrase?) No. I believe Any religion - which by its very definition makes great and largely unverifiable claims about the nature of God, humans, origins, and an after life - must stand or fall on its historicity. That is, can the verifiable fact claims of the religion Be verified? For instance, can we show through archeology, anthropology, extra-Biblical documentation, and other branches of science that there was a flood? That there was a nation of Israel in the Middle East several thousand years ago? That Jesus lived and died in the first century? Etc, etc, etc? I am satisfied that the answer to those questions is "yes."
Now, can similar means show that there was a nation of Israelites living in North America in the first century with a flourishing society later killed off by the Native Americans? No. As far as I've heard, not a shred of incontrovertible archaeological evidence of such a society has ever been unearthed.
Given that lack, why should I buy the truth-claim of the rest of the theology - about Jesus and Satan being brothers and Elohim having physical relations with Mary and all that rot? And similarly, what excuse can I give for not seriously considering the less verifiable truth-claims of Christianity, if all physical and historical evidence backs it up?
I realize this is a very dangerous sort of statement to be making, for obviously I cannot know "all" evidence that has been uncovered, and it leaves my very favorite belief system standing up there uncovered and ready to be knocked over by the first scientist / historian / archaeologist who can disprove it. And certainly given my inability to gather and analyze all knowledge myself there is still a Lot of room for faith here - faith, for instance, to treat contradictory "evidence" to my religion as confidently but honestly with my beliefs given the benefit of the doubt rather than fearfully and dishonestly. But really, all I can say to that is that no-one has managed in 2000 years and more, and I don't expect anyone will in the future.


ROUS  Annette Collins, Wednesday, 7-25-07 10:14 AM
re: Mormon Video
Annette, you keep posting things that spark something in me. I think we are very different in how we relate to the world, and it's so very interesting to me to read things liks this were you lay out "why" you believe what you believe. For me, I believe because of my experience. It's not because I can scientfically backup anything that Christianity claims. Maybe that's why I have such a hard time with the creation/evolution debate. For me personally, it has very little to do with my faith. I mean, I'm glad that it all makes sense (that the bible is able to proven), but it's not a crucial part of my faith or my belief. Of course, I think sometimes we have to be careful that the Bible is really making a certain "truth-claim" & that it is not just our reading-in what we would like it to say. But that's another story for another day.

My faith is based on how I have experienced God in my own life, and in the lives of those around me. I don't think it's so much of a choice for me, and honestly, if one day it were proven to me that the flood didn't happen, or that evolution is mostly true, or anything like that -- well, quite frankly that wouldn't change very much for me. Now, if one day it were proven that Jesus never rose from the dead -- that's a different story. But my honest answer as to why I believe has very little to do with scientific facts & very much to do with human experience. How can I not belive in God when he has rescued me? How can I not believe in God when he has protected those I love? I know these things are harder to "prove" (and therefore disprove), but that's just how it is for me.

I will say that I am always amazed that God is so big & yet so personal that he is real to you (Annette) & to me even though we are very different. In fact, that's one of the things that strengthens my faith -- God is bigger than me & the part of him that I am able to experience is probably very small.
ROUS  Zach Brumbelow, Wednesday, 7-25-07 10:48 AM
re: Mormon Video
very fascinating discussion here. has any one seen the movie "The Book of Mormon"? It is available at Blockbuster.


Link: Book of Mormon
ben, Wednesday, 7-25-07 4:40 PM
re: Mormon Video
Amy, I think it can be easy to confuse the argument with the presenter, specially when it comes to sensitive subjects such as morality and spirituality. I will say this as gently as possible, but I don't believe that "I know a person who does ____" is a valid reason for supporting that "____" to be right/moral. We as sympathetic human beings don't want to believe that someone we care about is doing something wrong. Its the action/belief/argument that needs to be examined, rather than their relationship to us.

Annette and Zach, I see your two arguments also coming from very different perspectives. Annette's is scientific while Zach's is experiential. The problem with experience is that it can't be translated (well) from one person to another. I don't know how many time's I've wanted to hand over my experiences with God to my friend S who grew up Christian and now she can't see how people made the leap to from an AWE moment to "that was God that did that". My "God moments" have moved me much further along in my spiritual development, but don't do well to move others along in theirs.

that's my 8.5 cents!


ROUS  Christina Reagan, Wednesday, 7-25-07 4:42 PM
re: Mormon Video
Christina,
I think you're right as to how Zach's and my arguments differ, and the weaknesses of Zach's. Of course, the weakness of my argument is that it doesn't say much *to* Zach. It has so little to do with the emotions (aka the "burning in the breast") that it can leave a lot of listeners cold. Few and far between are the converts who came to Christ because of a beautifully presented scientific lecture on the evidence against evolution. ;)

Amy, I hope you don't feel like anyone's jumping down your throat over your defense of your cousin. I expect you were just mentioning that you know and respect someone who's fallen for the whole Mormon Fable hook line and sinker, not actually defending her beliefs. And you're right: people caught in this particular lie deserve our respect as much as anyone else.
Annette, Wednesday, 7-25-07 5:43 PM
re: Mormon Video
every mormon i know is super friendly. which again, doesnt defend their beliefs....


ben, aka 2 cents sharer, Wednesday, 7-25-07 7:21 PM
re: Mormon Video
Thank you Annette... I was not defending the Mormon faith at all. My point was that just as we feel we are Christians... guess what??? So do Mormons. Mormons feel that they are Christians... that they are the true church... they feel that while we make a nice attempt, we fall short. All of the Mormons I know are really kind and loving people. My opinion is that the Mormon doctrine is NOT correct. However, Mormons feel that the doctrine is the only true gospel of Christ and that they are living by Gods will.
Amy, Thursday, 7-26-07 8:50 AM
re: Mormon Video
Hey guys. I think that there's something important going on here, so I wanted to put in my two cents. Annette, your comments also made me think. Amy, your friendship with and sympathy for your friends who are Mormons also makes me think. Zach, your comments about experienced truth versus scientific truth also made me think.

Something inside of me wants to pull it all together somehow. I watched the video. In some ways, what we believe seems just as ridiculous to those who don't believe. Videos have been made about Christianity too. Some of them not so flattering. In fact, God even says that this news that we say is true will appear foolish to the ones around us who are dying because they do not know the truth, whose name is Jesus. But God help us if we stop telling people the truth about who Jesus is.

So I read John 8 because of this video. I wanted to find out who Jesus really is. It disturbs me deeply when people believe wrong things about Jesus and God, His Father. It disturbed Him also. But it disturbed Him because He loves people and He came to save them because we (people) need help and only He can help us.

Often I also believe what is false and it brings a lot of damage which I don't realize until afterwards. But I am very thankful for the people in my life who cared enough to tell me the truth and tell me when I was not walking in the truth. I don't think we should ever give up trying to introduce people to the One who is true, even if they may disagree. There's a lot of freedom in this actually, because we are not here to introduce people to our opinions but to a person who can help them.

Maybe its not endless discussions about theology. I am worried that we may get so caught up in this discussion about what is truth or what it isn't that truth becomes something impersonal - just a topic like the weather o politics.

In John 8 Jesus says to His disciples that they will know the truth and the truth will make them free. I wonder what this means? Thoughts?

We shouldn't make fun of people but we should be able to laugh with people. And I don't know if there's any particular virtue in feeling sorry for people either. In both cases, the people in question are in a different group than us. If I make fun of someone, they are not included. If I feel sorry for someone, I also detach myself from their trauma (like the pictures of starving children on Compassion International and World Vision commercials).

I think the response of Jesus is something different. He laughed, and cried with people and for people. I think its time for me to stop typing and start asking Him to help me really care for people in a tangible way. For me this starts with talking to Him about the people that I say I care about.

Sorry, but the church is traditional here and women can't preach in Romania so I have to use the internet on occasion.;)
Link: Who is Jesus?
Katy, Thursday, 8-2-07 7:51 AM
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